Ontario governenment is screwing drivers once again

[Mad Cow]

I just heard this from my dad and I'm incredibly pissed off. The government is try to pass a new law saying that any driver under 19 with a G2 can't have more than 1 teenaged passenger at any time. This is just ridiculous and way over the line. Lately, all the road laws I've seen passed didn't actually help with anything but appease the people complaining about the current "hot topic" and give cops more ways to give you tickets, helping fill their quota and provide the government with more money. In their eyes, I (a 17 year old with a G2 since April that drives almost every day through some of the worse traffic in the cities that can make split-second decisions to avoid accidents) am a worse driver than retiree with bad eyesight and reflexes slower than someone who just drank a case of beer. I regularly carry a car full of friends because not all of use have cars, this law will essentially take away the privilege that we worked and paid to attain.

If anyone is curious, here's a link to the proposal. [url]http://ogov.newswire.ca/ontario/GPOE/20 ... ng=_e.html[.url]

[Nd4SpdSe]

I got my licences quite a while ago. When I got my G1 and G2, I could of sworn there was a zero-tolerance too for alcool. Personally I totally agree with that, but it gets iffy with stuff like mouth wash.

Zero-tolerance for speeding is nuts. When I had my G2 I got pulled over for a 57 in a 40
because I wasn't paying attention because I was having a conversation with my passenger, but I was let off with a warning. It was a simple mistake, I wasn't in a rush or driving wrecklessly. I guess you could use that as ammo for the reason for limited passengers, and I've been there, and you can't say that they're not a distraction. Again, been there done that. In high-school I had my parents '90 626 loaded with 10 passengers, 2 in the trunk and one standing through the sunroof. Even about 3 years ago, I got an actual speeding ticket for doing 80 in a 60. Again I wasn't paying attention because I was having an argument with the at-the-time-girlfriend.

They say cell phones are distractions. I do limit the use of it while driving, and I use bluetooth headsets and headunits, but the two times I got pulled over for speeding because I was distracted by my passenger. However, and I do agree with this comment that someone made, but in a time of a bad economy, being friendly to the environment and the (was) high fuel prices, that doesn't make sence. I guess You can't load up for your car for those carload drive-in movie specials.

[RS_OBD'oh_2]

I have to agree with the law. Sorry to ruin it for everyone. Here in Alberta our new drivers are limited to passangers, the no drink rule and no driving after a certain time.(11:00?) I'd hate it if I were a new driver, but having 10+years under my belt... I think it's awesome.

[Ryan]

I'm 4 months shy of 18, and still a better driver than LOTS of adults I know... although we are known for our terrible drivers....

[colinsmx3]

I could care less since I am 26yrs old! But I would be totally fine with everyone getting a road test every 5 yrs! I mean there are some HORRIBLE older drivers out there including my 90 yr old grandfather who needs a walker to walk but can still drive......

[wytbishop]

The bottom line is, that driving is not your right. It is a privledge. While I'm sure you are a very good driver, enough of your young friends have demonstrated their lack of ability (by being hurt and/or killed) and their even greater lack of respect for that privledge (by being punks) to make lawmakers believe that control of young drivers is not strict enough.

If you look at countries like Germany, young drivers have been under strict control for many years. It teaches drivers that driving IS a privledge and that they must take it seriously. They are taught to respect the road and the other drivers on it from childhood and as a result of the driving culture they have created, they can have things like the Autobahn.

Change the culture of driving so that when you grow up, you can live in a society that respects one another and the privledge we all take for granted.

[tmac4t4]

i guess the best thing to do is make sure all your underage friends at least LOOK of age and don't drive like an idiot and don't get pulled over...all the time i see cars full of kids that don't even look old enough to be eating solids...so i can understand why they would enforce such a law...and just because your 16 and have beat every need for speed game out there, doesn't make you a good driver...what makes the older generation "better" is their ability to make responsible decisions..except the laws do get a little soggy when it comes to seniors..half of em can barely respond when asked their name the other half barely have enough strength press the brake pedal....also im not exactly one of those completely responsible drivers...i'm just fortunate enough to be old enough that this doesn't concern me

[marcdh]

Over here you can only drive when you are 17+. You then have to pass your full test if you wish to drive alone (without an instructor or experienced driver). Once you do pass you are only allowed to do 45mph max for 1 year. You are also only given 6 penalty points for the first 2 years (generally get 2/3 points for minor speeding) so 2 or 3 tickets and your licence is gone. Despite all this, the idiots will still be idiots, and road carnage is only increasing. Motorists are basically like piggy banks over here, it's all about £££ and how making up more fines. I swear if they poured the money they did into irritating motorists they might actually reduce serious crime.

[Mad Cow]

i guess the best thing to do is make sure all your underage friends at least LOOK of age and don't drive like an idiot and don't get pulled over...all the time i see cars full of kids that don't even look old enough to be eating solids...so i can understand why they would enforce such a law...and just because your 16 and have beat every need for speed game out there, doesn't make you a good driver...what makes the older generation "better" is their ability to make responsible decisions..except the laws do get a little soggy when it comes to seniors..half of em can barely respond when asked their name the other half barely have enough strength press the brake pedal....also im not exactly one of those completely responsible drivers...i'm just fortunate enough to be old enough that this doesn't concern me

Thank you for further perpetuating the damaging stereotype. Honestly, I don't even remember seeing an accident with a teen involved, not saying it doesn't happen, just saying that it's nowhere near as rampant as the government wants you to believe. You think good judgement comes with age? You're either born with it or you're not, I've avoided more than a few accidents (I seem to be really unlucky with other drivers pulling something stupid) that I'm fairly sure many adults wouldn't have. Hell, my mom congratulated me once and admitted that she would've crashed, and she has her G.

You know what would be a much better idea? How about making people redo their G test after they reach a certain age, I'm sure that will prevent much more accidents than making it illegal for teens to drive with passengers. But no, teens with passengers are the cause of all road accidents.

I stopped believing anything the Ontario government says after reading an article about how some cops were fired because they didn't meet their traffic ticket quota. It's all a cash grab, the Highway Traffic Act is written so vaguely for a reason. Earlier this year I got a ticket for Careless driving (6 points and $360 fine) Why? Because I accelerated a bit too quickly and rolled through a stop sign. The cop was really pissed off that day, so he made up something random and completely untrue (said I got wheelspin, which I've never succeeded in doing on purpose in that car, and that I ran over the curb, which didn't happen because I never felt anything like that) and gave me the ticket. Later that day I read up about careless driving, all it is is a charge created for cops that can't charge you with anything specific. It went something like "Driving without regard for the safety of other roadway users", which is the general reason for almost every single traffic charge.

[Nd4SpdSe]

just because your 16 and have beat every need for speed game out there, doesn't make you a good driver...

Really? Lol. Actually I believe video games are good to develop the ability to make quick decisions and react quickly, but you still need alot of real seat time to be a good driver

Thank you for further perpetuating the damaging stereotype. Honestly, I don't even remember seeing an accident with a teen involved, not saying it doesn't happen, just saying that it's nowhere near as rampant as the government wants you to believe. You think good judgement comes with age? You're either born with it or you're not, I've avoided more than a few accidents (I seem to be really unlucky with other drivers pulling something stupid) that I'm fairly sure many adults wouldn't have. Hell, my mom congratulated me once and admitted that she would've crashed, and she has her G.

You know what would be a much better idea? How about making people redo their G test after they reach a certain age, I'm sure that will prevent much more accidents than making it illegal for teens to drive with passengers. But no, teens with passengers are the cause of all road accidents.

I stopped believing anything the Ontario government says after reading an article about how some cops were fired because they didn't meet their traffic ticket quota. It's all a cash grab, the Highway Traffic Act is written so vaguely for a reason. Earlier this year I got a ticket for Careless driving (6 points and $360 fine) Why? Because I accelerated a bit too quickly and rolled through a stop sign. The cop was really pissed off that day, so he made up something random and completely untrue (said I got wheelspin, which I've never succeeded in doing on purpose in that car, and that I ran over the curb, which didn't happen because I never felt anything like that) and gave me the ticket. Later that day I read up about careless driving, all it is is a charge created for cops that can't charge you with anything specific. It went something like "Driving without regard for the safety of other roadway users", which is the general reason for almost every single traffic charge.

It's the truth. I don't think you read or watch enough news...but I don't blame ya, news is always negative and myself, I have better things to do than to sit around reading a paper or watching tv, but teenage related accidents happen more often than you seem to think, and those are the ones that are serious enough to be in the news.

Good judgement is determined by many factors, but typically it depends on how you were raised and your influences, weither positive or negative, as you were growing up. Also comes with experience, and experience it's pretty synanymous with age. Also, you have to have the brains to process the throughts and make judgement calls, so ya, you need to have some basics that you were born with, but the ones who don't would be mentally ill, if not, it's about the other points I mentioned.

Just cause you avoided an accident that your mom says she would of crashed doesn't make you an excellent driver. Maybe you just got lucky, maybe you lucked out and made the right decision, or maybe you did indeed make a right decision, but you've got alot of road ahead of you. We can't comment on what you did since we weren't there, but don't get cocky and overconfident, cause that's when you'll make the biggest of mistakes.

They are already considering the added test for seniors, so don't you worry about them.

I've heard mixed things about the quotas. I have friends that are tuners who have friends that are cops, and they want to know about quotas as well, as as far as they've been told and told me, there are no quotas.

Yes, there are rules that are vague, but they also require some common sence, but yes there are cops who do abuse that as well. If you have no reason in no doubt that you are 100% innocent, that you should be able to fight it and win. I have a cop give me a ticket for my monitor about 4 years ago, we was being beyond unresonable, despite the fact that I was using it for GPS (before GPS units were popular). I told him i'd fight it. I went to court, and in the end, it was thrown out at the first attendance meeting because he forgot to sign something. Maybe that was a deliberate move on his part cause I didn't notice it, and if i would of paid it, it would of been free money for him, but won that one. Another time, about 3 years ago, I got a ticket for my exhaust because it was loud. Yes, our exhaust laws are very vague, but I didn't have a catalytic converter, and those who did hear it will agree with me that it was LOUD. And I didn't raise a stink with her, I agreed. It was literally scheduled to go in the shop in 2-3 days, but that's my luck. I also asked her about my monitor since she was nice and honest, and she didn't have a problem with it.

Well, you have no argument against rolling on a stop sign. You don't need to read the laws, the sign is obvious, STOP. You rolled through it, and it's not about a judgement call on that it was clear or not, it's about the law, and the sign says stop, so you must stop, plain and simple.

Why the cop did what he did we don't know. Maybe you pissed him off. It does come down to what you did and the attitude you use to deal with him. Does he have the right to ticket you for something you didn't do, absolutely not, and I don't see how that can hold up in court. If you were innocent you should be able to fight it. I had a run in with a cop in Virginia that gave me 3 serious tickets; no license, no registration and no vehicle inspection. It was a well known cop who likes harrass modified cars. I did get a lawyer, but in the end, I got off on all those tickets, and you wouldn't believe the look the cop gave me, he was beyond PISSED.

[Mad Cow]

I'm scheduled to appear in january for that ticket, which I got in may (slow system FTW ). I'm not cocky in any way, what I'm saying is that teen drivers, just like any teens really, get a bad rap automatically. News is all sensationalist these days, and teen drivers crashing are a way better way to get rating than anybody else because of the simple fact that adults don't like us. Now I'm not saying it doesn't happen because it clearly does, I'm just saying, from my experience its nowhere near as big of a problem as even I thought before I started driving. I'm not saying I'm a good driver just because I avoided an accident, I'm saying that I'm a perfectly capable driver, no matter how many passengers I have, and all of my friends are too. In my opinion, good judgment depends on your reflexes greatly, who cares if you decide make the right decision when it's already too late? I know experience helps greatly, I'm not arguing that, but in my opinion it's mostly based on how quickly you can think and react, sure experience helps there, but genetics plays a bigger role.

What I really don't like is how only teen drivers are targeted in this law, nowhere does it even mention new G2 drivers that are over 19. What difference does age make if you still have the same amount of driving experience?

And obviously cops don't tell that they have quotas because ticket quotas are not only incredibly bad practice, but I think they're also illegal. And I'm not arguing the stop sign, I would have just paid the ticket if it was just that.

But what's your opinion on the actual wording of "careless driving"? Because even my dad thought it was ridiculous, he said the same thing about the new proposal too. Here's an exact quote from the OHTA "Every person is guilty of the offence of driving carelessly who drives a vehicle or street car on a highway without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway and on conviction is liable to a fine of not less than $200 and not more than $1,000 or to imprisonment for a term of not more than six months, or to both, and in addition his or her licence or permit may be suspended for a period of not more than two years. "

[Ryan]

I agree that adults have this notion that most (if not all) all teens are pot smoking, brainless, egotistical, testosterone fueled morons. I also find they only think this ofother persons' children, and never their own. Personally, I destest how adults treat me like my IQ is 50, while in my head I'm picking at their gramatical errors...

Just because we're young doesn't make us stupid. Its important to realize that my generation is more intelligent than the previous, and my kids will be smarter than me...

Inexperienced, sure. Definately not the most dangerous. People hear what they want to, and that is a sad fact. Why do people ignore cops that speed, or soccer moms that speed, or anyone else who changes lanes without a blinker, or rolls a stop sign... We're targeted. In the same way that if a mustang is shadowing a rusty pickup going 130, the mustang gets pulled and the truck keeps going...

On the other hand, I know people who are my age and drive like idiots. Mostly riceboys, too. They are a danger to themselves and others. Although me or any of my friends are perfectly apt drivers. Its unfair to slap that law over all teenagers. We're not all equal, in the same way not all cops are fair or just. Why generalize, instead of conceive a fair system? Cheaper, easier, and we can't quite vote yet

Glad I live in MB

[Mad Cow]

Thank you, you're now my favourite person here.

You're really lucky that you don't have to deal with this crap, cops here tend to be massive douchebags from my experience, and like to hand out tickets left and right, and they're not only rude, but also often hostile to teenagers. Only once have I "encountered" cops that actually treated my friends and I as their equals, they were actually polite and we joked around for a bit after they finished their business, I'll always remember that.

[RS_OBD'oh_2]

I would like to say that 16,17,18.. is very young. I'm 27 and I used to agree with some of you younger members out there. There are always exceptions to every rule, but for the most part; at that age you have not seen or experienced jacks#it. Only with experience can you grow and react. There are plenty of s#itty drivers out there, and most of them are not teens, but teens have a history of bad decision making. You see these douchebags weaving in and out of traffic at a high rate of speed, and they honestly think that they are good drives cuz they can pull it off. It's all a matter of time.

If you don't agree, I'm guessing I have a$$hair older than you.

[wytbishop]

Politically speaking...As I said earlier, I'm sure you are a good driver, but the current teenage generation as a whole is showing me every day that they don't have enough respect for themselves or most anyone else. That has nothing to do with driving. I'm talking about basic everyday courtesy and common sense. Again I'm not talking about you...I'm talking about the 13 - 18 year old population as a whole. Now I'm pretty forgiving...being as I'm such a cool guy...but you get into the age group of those who control the making of laws and yeah, you're really pissing some people off. They retaliate by exercising their law making powers. That's the way the world has and will always work.

Statistically though...from the California Dept. of Motor Vehicles: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/teenweb/more_btn6 ... raffic.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(BTW, these are the same people that proved that the National speed limit did not reduce either the frequency or severity of traffic accidents.)

Teenage Driver Crash Risk Factors
The traffic accident rates for 16- to 19-year old drivers are higher than those for any other age group. What causes teenage drivers to be such risky drivers? The following is a list of their primary risk factors.

Poor hazard detection
The ability to detect hazards in the driving environment depends upon perceptual and information-gathering skills and involves properly identifying stimuli as potential threats. It takes time for young novice drivers to acquire this ability.

Low risk perception
Risk perception involves subjectively assessing the degree of threat posed by a hazard and one's ability to deal with the threat. Young novice drivers tend to underestimate the crash risk in hazardous situations and overestimate their ability to avoid the threats they identify.

Risk Taking
Teenagers tend to take more risks while driving partly due to their overconfidence in their driving abilities. Young novice drivers are more likely to engage in risky behaviors like speeding, tailgating, running red lights, violating traffic signs and signals, making illegal turns, passing dangerously, and failure to yield to pedestrians.

Not wearing seat belts
Teenagers tend to wear safety belts less often than older drivers. Why?

Lack of skill
Novice teenage drivers have not yet completely mastered basic vehicle handling skills and safe-driving knowledge they need to drive safely.

Alcohol and drugs
Driving under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs is a common cause of serious crashes, especially fatal ones, involving teenage drivers. Teenagers who drink and drive are at much greater risk of serious crashes than are older drivers with equal concentrations of alcohol in their blood.

Carrying passengers
For teenagers, the risk of being in a crash increases when they transport passengers-the fatality risk of drivers aged 16-17 years is 3.6 times higher when they are driving with passengers than when they are driving alone, and the relative risk of a fatal crash increases as the number of passengers increases. Passengers who are age peers may distract the teen drivers and encourage them to take more risks, especially for young males riding with young male drivers.

Night driving
The per mile crash rate for teenaged drivers is 3 times higher after 9:00 pm during the day. This is because the task of driving at night is more difficult; they have less experience driving at night than during the day; they are more sleep deprived, and/or because teenage recreational driving, which often involves alcohol, is more likely to occur at night.


Sorry dude...these are statistical facts. It's not about you. It's about youth. You will look back later in your life at your teenaged self and shake your head. We all do.