Running Rich??? - Can't be??

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » August 26th, 2005, 9:21 am

OK, my ignorance is really going to show here. Ever since I've had the ZE installed, I've had this black crap the coats the inside muffler tips of my Magna Flow exhaust and deposits black type soot on the bumper. Nothing is detected at idle and only under higher throttle positions or blipping the throttle to 5 and 6k do I visibly see the black crap spewing out. The CAI air filter is clean, plugs indicate a nice tan/whitish colour with very little deposits after 5k km. I know I'm in need of a replacement TB and I am waiting on one at present. Current TB has too much of a gap around butterfly and has precipitated the need to have the air idle screw adjusted to an almost closed position. I've done numerous TPS adjustments and appears to be fine (can't find a shop that knows their shat about TPS adjustments to confer with anyways). The IAC is disconnected due to it being out of tolerances ohms-wise, and was therefore generating higher than normal idle(s). The black soot condition was already present before this so I don't think that would be an issue. While at a meet this week I spoke to few that appeared to know much more about basic engine principles and specifically the ZE. Their interpretation was that it was running too rich. I'm thinkin' how can that be since my plugs look perfect. Just to update - KL31 ECU, JE50 VAF, KL68 TB, Millennia IM, ZE FPR and injectors, original fuel pump, new fuel filter, original cat, original O2's with headers and 2.5" SS and no pre-silencer. Any suggestions, this black crap has got to stop.

PATDIESEL · Post by **PATDIESEL** » August 26th, 2005, 9:56 am

My suggestions, replace the original cat and O2 sensors. I know the sensors aren't bad or the car wouldn't run, but I've seen them make a vast improvement in the air/fuel ratio when changed out for newer than 12 year old ones. Also a stock K8 cat is going to be a bit dirty by now and may not be burning like it should. Your set-up seems fine to burn cleanly so I'd look elsewhere.
The TB may also be an issue, but since your O2s and cat are obviously old and need replacing anyway I'd start there.

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » August 26th, 2005, 2:43 pm

PATDIESEL wrote:The TB may also be an issue, but since your O2s and cat are obviously old and need replacing anyway I'd start there.

I can't believe some of these "Numpties" at the Mazda parts. I make a call to query the cost and type used as OEM replacement by Mazda itself for O2 sensors. He immediately asks me, "what's your VIN #", and I'm goin' what the%&@. Again I tell them I want a set of O2 sensors for a 92 MX3 V6 1.8 and he explains that there are different O2 sensors for cars even midway through production year .... OK, fine ... talk to you later. It would be nice for those working in the service industry to be able to think outside the box and not always default to the preprogrammed response. Tried researching a retailer for Magna Flow in my area with no luck. When I get to strike 3 am I out ???? LOL

babyblueMX3 · Post by **babyblueMX3** » August 26th, 2005, 2:59 pm

john. are ALL the plugs ok ? or you check one ?

lakersfan1 · Post by **lakersfan1** » August 26th, 2005, 3:11 pm

Now you know why I don't go to the dealership anymore. If they asked me what my VIN was one more time, I was going to have to break a piece off in thier a--. Especially for those of us with a swap and you ask for parts for an engine that didn't come stock in your car. Can they just shut the f--- up and look up what I ask?

Jettblackcat · Post by **Jettblackcat** » August 26th, 2005, 4:25 pm

can't find a magnaflow dealer in your area??

we have an assoc. store in belleville hwy 62 n?? just check with them.

APC (613) 962-7888, if they can't find what you want, pm me and i'll try to find what you want.

tried to use quotes, couldn't get it to work.

MX-3 Money · Post by **MX-3 Money** » August 26th, 2005, 5:25 pm

lakersfan1 wrote: Can they just shut the FARK up and look up what I ask?

Is that a fark.com reference? lol

But John you described my exact situation, plugs look good, new fuel filter, but I have a new cat and set of o2 sensors. And still rich! I have lots of power over my old k8 but if I'm running this rich I coule be losing so much power. Only dynoed at 124hp at the wheels...that sucks!!! I want this fixed!

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » August 26th, 2005, 9:21 pm

MX-3 Money wrote:But John you described my exact situation, plugs look good, new fuel filter, but I have a new cat and set of o2 sensors. And still rich! I have lots of power over my old k8 but if I'm running this rich I coule be losing so much power. Only dynoed at 124hp at the wheels...that sucks!!! I want this fixed!

Wow, that's low and that sucks. It must be a big dissappointment. I'm affraid to see what the dyno says of mine. Probably read - "Thanks for comin' out" ... LOL. Anyway on to your problem, maybe since you've already got a new cat and O2's, how about some serious TPS adjustments. Speaking of which I just noticed that your sig doesn't indicate which IM, TB or VAF you're using. A ZE will need all of the complimenting components to work effectively. Like a ZE or Millennia IM, a JE50 VAF, a KL68 or KL47 TB and is your CAI routed completely into the fender well. Address those and you might see some better dyno runs. It's been said by a few that an AFPR is in order while others disagree.

Jettblackcat wrote:can't find a magnaflow dealer in your area??
we have an assoc. store in belleville hwy 62 n?? just check with them.
APC (613) 962-7888, if they can't find what you want, pm me and i'll try to find what you want. tried to use quotes, couldn't get it to work.

Hey thanks JBC, know exactly where it is (small little outlet), got my Royal Purple from there.

lakersfan1 wrote:Now you know why I don't go to the dealership anymore. If they asked me what my VIN was one more time, I was going to have to break a piece off in thier a--. Especially for those of us with a swap and you ask for parts for an engine that didn't come stock in your car. Can they just shut the FARK up and look up what I ask?

Ya, I know what you mean. Just had a thought after talking to them that perhaps I should have asked about MX6 O2's. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to get O2's for a 2.5L rather than a 1.8L? Don't know if they're a different part # or not. I don't even know if they will fit and if they are of the 4 wire type. Don't even know why the heck I was looking for MX3 ones in the first place. Gotta give my head a shake.... That's better. Went to an Auto Parts express place today and they quoted a list of over $400. cdn and sale price of $320.cdn for ONE NGK O2 sensor. We both looked at each other with the biggest pregnant pause there was and we both almost burst out laughing. I smiled and said, you have a great day ...... This just keeps getting better and better. You'd think those things were made of gold or something. I think the best price 4 wire NGK
O2 was from Nopionline, and that was for an MX3. Gotta see if the MX6 part# is the same.

babyblueMX3 wrote:john. are ALL the plugs ok ? or you check one ?

That's the strange part. I've always been of the understanding that if a car ran rich, it would run rich at all rpms at all loads. Yet my plugs don't reflect this whatsoever. A light tanish colour after about 5k km and very little build-up on all of the plugs (with 94 octane always). All are of the same consistancy. Is it possible to run at a good mixture when at idle but get excessively rich in the higher rpms, especially with the stock KL01 FPR? I just got a AFPR from Babyblue (thanks Steve - and yes the bracket is missing) and thought that I should hold off installing for fear of compounding my problem.

MX-3 Money · Post by **MX-3 Money** » August 26th, 2005, 10:35 pm

Well I have the curved ZE IM, KL68 TB and I don't know what vaf I have but its the one from my k8. Thought that was the correct one to use? Now I think I have tried the tps adjustment but i don't really understand the online manual, but im pretty sure i've done it.

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » August 27th, 2005, 1:42 am

MX-3 Money wrote:Well I have the curved ZE IM, KL68 TB and I don't know what vaf I have but its the one from my k8. Thought that was the correct one to use? Now I think I have tried the tps adjustment but i don't really understand the online manual, but im pretty sure i've done it.

Try the performance section on Probetalk. I think there may be links in previous threads that I posted along with correct voltage and/or resistance readings used from the on-linw manual should help immensely.

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » August 27th, 2005, 5:17 pm

PATDIESEL wrote:My suggestions, replace the original cat and O2 sensors.

Sound idea. Since I already have a Magna Flow polished SS oval twin tip muffler, here's what I've come up with to make a complete system;

I like Tatsu's (?) recommendation of a resonator/pre-silencer
Magna Flow part#14416 - 2.5" in/out, 4" round, 14"body, total length 20"

I'm up in the air for Cat's and not knowing what the OEM dimensions are, these were the 2 I was considering;
Magna Flow part#94306, SS Cat, 2.5" in/out, oval 4"x7", body 12", total length16"
or
Magna Flow Part#54306, SS Cat, 2.5" in/out, round 4", body 9", total length 13"
http://www.car-sound.com/catalog/universal/mirror.aspx
Recommendations would be appreciated.

Now for O2 sensors, it seems the best bang for the buck is the NTK (NGK) units from Nopi Online.
MX3 - Universal 4 wire part# 973+0269 @ $42.87usd ea.
http://www.nopionline.com/nopistore/dsp ... X-3%201992

MX6 - OEM replacement part# 973+0555 Left side (???) @ $60.07usd ea.
http://www.nopionline.com/nopistore/dsp ... X-6%201993
MX6 - OEM replacement part# 973+0311 Right side (???) @ $72.50 usd ea.
http://www.nopionline.com/nopistore/dsp ... X-6%201993
MX6 - Universal 4 wire part# 973+0269 @ $42.87usd ea.
http://www.nopionline.com/nopistore/dsp ... X-6%201993

As you can see the MX6 universal is the same as the MX3 universal. I'm assuming that the universal ones do not have the applicable connectors and may be of a different colour scheme, if memory of a previous thread serves me. Since we are interchangeable with the MX6, I thought I'd be doing myself a bigger favour by going with the MX6 OEM replacements since they were designed for the 2.5L engine. I'm going to assume that because they are an OEM replacement they should have the correct connectors. I'm still not certain as to why or how they are identified as LEFT and RIGHT and the pricing difference. Perhaps someone could clarify that too.
Just as a kicker - called NopiOnline to get specifics on O2's wrt shipping and that. They said they won't sell directly to me in canada but must go through one of their Canada outlets. That particular outlet (Concepts on Wheels 1-866 500-5469, in Toronto) was closed and I'll have to wait til Monday for info on that. Nopi did tell me that they will sell directly to US residents. Will have to see on Monday from Concepts on Wheels how much of a Canadian mark-up it's going to be. Anyway your recommendations are sollicitted.

kiwi_MX3 · Post by **kiwi_MX3** » August 28th, 2005, 8:42 am

One day i will sit down and write a treaty on engine tunning.

First off the black soot on the exhuast thats fine, really and i
bet i can see a few rasied eye brows!

Im going to pick on my TRX to explain why and for those who have no
idea wot a TRX is, its a parrallel twin bike, mine just happens to run
a ex paris to dakar donk.

Yea its over fueling, but a clean burn its the carbon content.
running rich to some extent is ok, a lot of longdistance race motors
do it to aid in cooling of the valves, and also to avoid running lean
in long periods of WOT ( wide open throttle )

The Biggest issue that seems to happen to peaple on this board is tunning
and that is worth HP, my mate Gary just had his pro import k20a tunned
finailly by some honda guru, and the damm thing stomped out another
30whp the barstrad!

One thing i have not seen on this board is anyone using a adjustable
resistance setup on the VAF, cos its the VAF that controls where on the
fuel map the ECU is going to read more than a narrow band o2 sensor.

By adjusting the resistance of the VAF you can fool the ECU and move the
air / fuel / load point in the ecu, a lot of motors are setup to run rich at
high rpm's simply to stop joe public blowing them up period.

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » August 28th, 2005, 11:00 am

Would going back to a stock airbox with K&N filter minimize what appears to be excessive VAF deflection possibly caused by a CAI? In doing so would the ECU input from the VAF at throttle positions other than idle be more condusive to a better air/fuel mixture at those points?

kiwi_MX3 · Post by **kiwi_MX3** » August 28th, 2005, 6:18 pm

Hmm, It would probably put the VAF back closer
to factory calibration by doing that, if you have the
parts to do it give it a go, would be interesting.

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » August 29th, 2005, 10:15 am

I'd like to order these parts by the end of the business day and I was hoping for some feedback as quick as possible ... thanks
John

jschrauwen wrote:
PATDIESEL wrote:My suggestions, replace the original cat and O2 sensors.
Sound idea. Since I already have a Magna Flow polished SS oval twin tip muffler, here's what I've come up with to make a complete system;

I like Tatsu's (?) recommendation of a resonator/pre-silencer
Magna Flow part#14416 - 2.5" in/out, 4" round, 14"body, total length 20"

I'm up in the air for Cat's and not knowing what the OEM Cat dimensions are, these were the 2 I was considering;
Magna Flow part#94306, SS Cat, 2.5" in/out, oval 4"x7", body 12", total length16"
or
Magna Flow Part#54306, SS Cat, 2.5" in/out, round 4", body 9", total length 13"
http://www.car-sound.com/catalog/universal/mirror.aspx
Recommendations would be appreciated.

Can anyone confirm that NopiOnline does not sell/ship to Canada.