Can a supercharged KLZE handle a small shot of nitrus?

mazdamaniac · Post by **mazdamaniac** » October 23rd, 2002, 12:37 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Since you started reading off your favorite titles, here's one, From the "Do-It-Yourself Guide to Street Supercharging" by Pat Gandahl.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I have this book also and it is of dubious value. Besides the fact that it was published in 1984 and the modern centrifugal is an afterthought section that was appended to later editions, much of the theoretical stuff runs somewhat to the contrary of Bell's book. However, the passage that you quote is fine, to some extent until it runs abreast of reality - in how it doesn't apply to a setup engineered like mine... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So since during YOUR dyno, you mentioned it was 9lbs, this means that you had 2.25 lbs of boost at 3500 rpm. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If you follow Pat's math and ignore the actual data. At 3500 RPM I had 5 PSI. Blower SIZING has a lot to do with that, something you dismisssed earlier when you said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The size of a Centrifugal supercharger has ZERO to do with how soon it starts to give meaningful amounts of power increase.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>which is wrong, as I stated earlier. My boost curve is not a long exponential swoop as your math would have it because of the blower sizing. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I know you dont believe me, but a roots blower will have its full boost at that level.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Its not that "I don't believe you", but, rather, that what your are stating is wrong. Again, you are confusing what "boost" is. A Roots type will displace EXACTLY the same amount of air in every revolution. How much "boost" that amounts to is dependant on the requirements and VE of the motor at that RPM. The flow reqirements of a motor are not linear, so the "boost" (which is really a measurement of the inefficient relationship between a supercharger and its host - a properly sized and set up system would never show any "boost" at all) CAN'T be the same at a wide range of RPM. If your Roots type hit its full "boost", meaning pressure differential, at 2000 RPM, you would be in deep trouble before you even hit 3500 RPM. Furthermore, this does nothing to advance your argument that... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...its exactly what i dont like. He's gaining 100 hp from 3000 rpm to 5000 rpm. Thats too much, too fast...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The fact is, a roots type does have a measurable pressure differential between the manifold and the plenum of some quantity at all times which gives the impression of a real kick in the pants when you step on it - which immediately gives way to "where's the beef?" (to quote Corky) after a few hundered more RPM. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>a flat torque curve means the engine IS PEAKY. Look at every Honda Vtec engine dyno. Flat torque curve. Hondas are what? Oh yes, PEAKY!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><A HREF="http://www.hondata.com/images/typer.jpg" TARGET=_blank>Typical N/A Honda motor</A> Do you see the "hump" at 4.5k or so and how there is a long RPM strech beyond the torque peak before you get to the HP peak? That is what "peaky" means. <A HREF="http://www.hondata.com/images/ramair479hpxlschart.gif" TARGET=_blank>Typical centrifugal chart on a small displacement motor (2 liter Honda)</A> That is what a "typical" centrifugal plot looks like. Not similar to: <A HREF="http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/stills/dyno.jpg" TARGET=_blank>my dyno</A> Do you see how the torque is flat over most of its range and the HP is a long sweep up until it runs out of fuel? The only thing "peaky" is the little hump where the mix crossed the 13:1 A/F range. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...you're the one quoting me that "Turbo: most power, but at cost for turbo lag" is "imaginary". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>"Lag" is also a term you are misusing (like most of the FI newbies) to mean "boost threshold". That is a different discussion that we will get to when you have absorbed the above.

pelado · Post by **pelado** » October 23rd, 2002, 9:51 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ProtegeSTS: you've misinterpeted what I said. I NEVER changed my arguemnt. I kept trying to change how I worded it so MAYBE one of you would understand it. It didnt seem to work. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>See what I mean about arrogance? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ProtegeSTS: I acknoledge that Jeff did something that NOBODY else had ever done, and through a lot of time and effort, got it to actually work pretty well.My arguement stems from the opinion that Centrifugual superchargers are a poor choice for a motor such as a KLDE or ZE due to their peaky nature. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I cannot help but see a conflict between those two statements. Disregarding that, your opinion about centrifugal superchargers on KL engines has been pointless from the beginning. Why? No room in the engine bay. A Vortech is the only way to adapt a supercharger to a KL without major engineering headaches (the KJ engine proves my point). Jeff can vouch that even the Vortech was a PITA. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ProtegeSTS: I was upset that Jeff decided to insult me, when his info was wrong. Such as: <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I believe it was you that threw the first insult: "It seems as though you have little understanding of how postitive displacement blowers work." Jeff was trying to tell you that a positive displacement blower is OVERsized from the get-go, or else it would not make any boost down low. You failed to comprehend Jeff's point about VE.However, both of you started to hurl insults at each other and let your egos get in the way which made communication between the two of you nigh impossible. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ProtegeSTS: Jeez, im sorry you dont like the way I explained my side. But damn, why must you bite my head off because I proved my point? What did I do to you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, I feel like I started this by posting a link to Jeff's dyno plot when you asked for data. You did nothing to me personally but you continue to imply that the majority of us are dumbasses. I just ignore it most of the time but not this time. You proving one aspect of your argument had nothing to do with it.

ProtegeSTS · Post by **ProtegeSTS** » October 23rd, 2002, 10:13 am

Jeff, Im clearly just a moron and bow down your intellectual power, so answer my questions so that all of us lemmings/idiots/morons/toyota owners can learn.a) Ok, so Corky and Pat disagree on certain aspects.... who is right? Also, how does it not apply to your system? b) Where does Pat's math go wrong? IIRC, ALL compressors build compression the same way, square of the blade tip speed.(ignoring VE) If this is incorrect, whats the correct?c) "My boost curve is not a long exponential swoop as your math would have it because of the blower sizing." Where is ANY data to back this up? Looking at a stock KLDE dyno vs yours would show that the supercharger does indeed give more power as you reach higher rpm.d) <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Its not that "I don't believe you", but, rather, that what your are stating is wrong. Again, you are confusing what "boost" is. A Roots type will displace EXACTLY the same amount of air in every revolution. How much "boost" that amounts to is dependant on the requirements and VE of the motor at that RPM. The flow reqirements of a motor are not linear, so the "boost" (which is really a measurement of the inefficient relationship between a supercharger and its host - a properly sized and set up system would never show any "boost" at all) CAN'T be the same at a wide range of RPM. If your Roots type hit its full "boost", meaning pressure differential, at 2000 RPM, you would be in deep trouble before you even hit 3500 RPM<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Again, please, how are you going to discount owner's of these systems? Yes, a roots displaces the same amount, so youre correct in your VE argument, but the roots blower increases its own rpm with engine rpm, and is geared to always supply X amount of extra manifold pressure (again, ignoring VE, which in a well designed motor wont change THAT much). And my definition of "boost" is positive manifold pressure. Keep in mind that a roots blower's efficiency isnt linear either, and ALL of our "basic calculations" are just first cuts of the real deal.e) Ok Mr. Semantics, please explain boost threshold as opposed to lag for the rest of us.f) please take the time to actually explain how the previous dyno that Ive posted is wrong, and why it is. See, thats what ive seen, and it makes sense to me. But you seem to think that nothing works like that. So id like to hear your ideas on whats is actually wrong, rather than spouting off that "thats imaginary, and doesnt exsist in the real world."[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: ProtegeSTS ]

ProtegeSTS · Post by **ProtegeSTS** » October 23rd, 2002, 10:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by pelado: I cannot help but see a conflict between those two statements. Disregarding that, your opinion about centrifugal superchargers on KL engines has been pointless from the beginning. Why? No room in the engine bay. A Vortech is the only way to adapt a supercharger to a KL without major engineering headaches (the KJ engine proves my point). Jeff can vouch that even the Vortech was a PITA.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I said that a Centrifugal (Vortech) was a poor choice. I never said it didn't work. It just doesn't work as well as other options, IMO. It's still a way to get good power gains (We wont get into "where" those are located), and the packaging isnt horrible. It's just nothing I would ever do to a KL engine, as I see better options, again, in my opinion.

big mike · Post by **big mike** » October 23rd, 2002, 10:35 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> A Roots type will displace EXACTLY the same amount of air in every revolution. How much "boost" that amounts to is dependant on the requirements and VE of the motor at that RPM. The flow reqirements of a motor are not linear, so the "boost" (which is really a measurement of the inefficient relationship between a supercharger and its host - a properly sized and set up system would never show any "boost" at all) CAN'T be the same at a wide range of RPM. If your Roots type hit its full "boost", meaning pressure differential, at 2000 RPM, you would be in deep trouble before you even hit 3500 RPM. Furthermore, this does nothing to advance your argument that... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not to be a jerk, but as far as I can tell from this argument you don't even understand the fundamental theory of how forced induction works. Any blower, regardless of type, only forces more air into the motor using its positive manifold pressure. If you didnt make any "boost" in pressure you'd be barely gaining any power, a normal high output motor can get to very nearly 0 vac all by itself just on the suction created by its pistons. The positive pressure FORCES more air into the cylinder than the motor can mechanically move using its vacuum. You're also completely ignoring the CFM part of the equation, roots blowers make full boost pressure at very low RPM, because the ammount of CFM of air they displace relative to the engine's VE is very close to constantly relative, engine VE doesnt vary THAT much.To make a simplier example of WHY your completely wrong about the need for boost pressure, imagine taking an air compressor and hooking it up to a standard blow gun attatchment. Does it move as much air through the tip at 40 psi as it will at 120? No, the higher pressure in the tank FORCES more air through it, just like boost pressure forces more air down the intake manifold and into the cylinders. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Typical N/A Honda motor Do you see the "hump" at 4.5k or so and how there is a long RPM strech beyond the torque peak before you get to the HP peak? That is what "peaky" means. Typical centrifugal chart on a small displacement motor (2 liter Honda) That is what a "typical" centrifugal plot looks like. Not similar to: my dyno Do you see how the torque is flat over most of its range and the HP is a long sweep up until it runs out of fuel? The only thing "peaky" is the little hump where the mix crossed the 13:1 A/F range. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Did you actually LOOK at your own dyno plot? I dunno where you grew up, but last time i checked FLAT torque meant it was constant, not constantly making a linear rise, which UNEQUIVAQALLY shows that your centrifugal's displacement of air rises as the speed rises. If you want a FLAT torque curve, maybe you should go look at a stock 1.8t audi/vw, or a tuned BP like mine, my BP makes 90 ft/lbs from 2000 rpm to 6000 with a peak of 108, its a very slow rise to 108 and slowly backs down until you get much above the magic flow limit at 6000 and it starts dropping away again. It's not pefectly flat, but its way flatter than the curve from your motor. <A HREF="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/escortgt/ ... igdyno.jpg" TARGET=_blank>Mike's Dyno</A> Take a look for yourself.

lazzyie · Post by **lazzyie** » October 23rd, 2002, 7:37 pm

Regardless of your arguing I thank the four of you for the sheer amount of information that has been thrown out in this thread.

mazdamaniac · Post by **mazdamaniac** » October 24th, 2002, 2:32 am

You know, I said it before, but now I really mean it. I give up.I've never seen such a bunch of unfounded, baseless crap thrown around with such authority in a technical thread. Well, maybe I have, but I digress. You guys are looking at red and calling it blue. Get a grip. :p[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: mazdamaniac ]

Sonicxtacy02 · Post by **Sonicxtacy02** » October 24th, 2002, 11:11 am

dood Jeff i'm surprised you even post on this board anymore lol. Anyways, i agree with the fact that since Jeff has the supercharger, there really should be no argument in the matter.

David Coleman · Post by **David Coleman** » October 24th, 2002, 2:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sonicxtacy02: dood Jeff i'm surprised you even post on this board anymore lol. Anyways, i agree with the fact that since Jeff has the supercharger, there really should be no argument in the matter.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Clearly, just as I have a brain, so I clearly know everything there is to know about the human brain. I believe there is alot to be learned here, and if one steps back and looks at both sides of the arguement, analyzes the given facts, then you can gain a better understanding of superchargers. Which, I might note, will never make the same power as a turbocharger, so why waste you time?

:p

Xero · Post by **Xero** » October 24th, 2002, 3:52 pm

Favorite Thread EVER! I've already told a ton of my friends who want to learn about superchargers to view this thread. It should be put into the FI FAQ fo sho.

Sonicxtacy02 · Post by **Sonicxtacy02** » October 24th, 2002, 4:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by David Coleman: Clearly, just as I have a brain, so I clearly know everything there is to know about the human brain. I believe there is alot to be learned here, and if one steps back and looks at both sides of the arguement, analyzes the given facts, then you can gain a better understanding of superchargers. Which, I might note, will never make the same power as a turbocharger, so why waste you time?

I guess it could taken on a case-by-case basis. Personally, i'd like my woman more like a supercharger (belt driven, powerful, whiny) than a brain (gooey and lumpy) lol.

mazdamaniac · Post by **mazdamaniac** » October 24th, 2002, 4:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by David Coleman: Clearly, just as I have a brain, so I clearly know everything there is to know about the human brain. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh sure, brag why don't you. I think your possession of a brain is suspect. Certainly this picture raises some doubt:

:p<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You are such a bigot! But, yeah, I figured that out too. But not until I conquered the above topic to a large degree. <A HREF="http://www.mazdamaniac.com/turbo/turbo.htm" TARGET=_blank>Turbo install pics.</A>

lazzyie · Post by **lazzyie** » October 24th, 2002, 9:21 pm

so thats what the mx-3 piping should have looked like!! way to go Jeff!

Sean Mandell · Post by **Sean Mandell** » October 24th, 2002, 10:57 pm

wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

mazdamaniac · Post by **mazdamaniac** » October 25th, 2002, 12:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by David Coleman: Clearly, just as I have a brain, so I clearly know everything there is to know about the human brain. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> BTW, this is a weak metaphor.You should have said (to be relevant):"Clearly, just as I have a brain, so I clearly know everything there is to know about how I think."

MX-3.com

Can a supercharged KLZE handle a small shot of nitrus?

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Re: Can a supercharged KLZE handle a small shot of nitrus?

Re: Can a supercharged KLZE handle a small shot of nitrus?

Re: Can a supercharged KLZE handle a small shot of nitrus?

Re: Can a supercharged KLZE handle a small shot of nitrus?

Re: Can a supercharged KLZE handle a small shot of nitrus?

Re: Can a supercharged KLZE handle a small shot of nitrus?

Re: Can a supercharged KLZE handle a small shot of nitrus?

Re: Can a supercharged KLZE handle a small shot of nitrus?

Re: Can a supercharged KLZE handle a small shot of nitrus?

Re: Can a supercharged KLZE handle a small shot of nitrus?

Re: Can a supercharged KLZE handle a small shot of nitrus?

Re: Can a supercharged KLZE handle a small shot of nitrus?

Re: Can a supercharged KLZE handle a small shot of nitrus?

Re: Can a supercharged KLZE handle a small shot of nitrus?