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 Obsolete oil, Modern oil and oil additives, a good read. 
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Post Obsolete oil, Modern oil and oil additives, a good read.
Disclaimer:
I am not an oil expert. I have not performed any tests. I am not certified in any way to confirm or deny the authenticity, plausibility or reliability of the following information. I am at best an amatuer. I have no certifications. The following information is historical and assumptions made are purely speculative and may or may not be accurate. A little knowledge to an ignorant person is extremely dangerous. If you are an ignorant person, please do not continue reading.

History:
I was introduced to MX-3s around 2006. I met the MOCA (Atlanta MX-3) group around that time. I mostly talked to Pat (our own Patdiesel) and I remember the time he took me in his KLZE MX-3. He was telling me about his KL31 cammed ZE and his friend's KL01 cammed ZE and how depending on the track layout they traded "blows" in track position. He then told me that he had been tracking his ZE for seven years without having to perform a rebuild or serious maintenance. Seven years of abuse.
I at that time only owned a B6. In my eyes, the KL was not only a terrific performer but a reliable workhorse.




ILSAC began GF certification in 1990.
GF-1: 1990, revised 1992.
GF-2: 1996
GF-3: 2000
GF-4: 2004
GF-5: 2011

Each new standard brought several benefits. Viscosity Index (VI) improvers, resistance to heat, etc.

Obsolete conventional motor oil relied on a cheap and effective anti-wear additive called Zinc dialkyldithiophosphates. Or ZDDP. It's main component, if you can't tell by the name, is both Zinc and Phosphorus. This was developed in 1941 by a company called Lubrizol.
Particularly the Phosphorus was causing premature catalytic converter failure. With pressure on the EPA, advent of three-way catalytic converters and the expense of palladium and platinum, catalytic converter longevity was important for both OEMS and emissions regulations.

Measured in parts per million (ppm) pre-GF-1 standard oils would contain in excess of 1200 ppm, or .12% of ZDDP.
1992, API and ILSAC certified oil was limited TO 1200 PPM ZDDP or .12%.
1996, ZDDP was limited to 1000 PPM or .10%
2004, ZDDP was again limited this time to 800 PPM or .08%
in 2014, many oils contain 600 PPM and even lower.

Valvoline VR1 racing oil, which is NOT synthetic, claims it has 75% more ZDDP content than "SM motor oils".
It's zinc content is 1300 ppm, phosphorus is 1200 ppm (.13% and .12% respectively) which would then suggest that API SM rated oil has a content of about 300-400 PPM.

Mobil 1 "Extended Performance" oils run 900 and 800 ppm zinc/phosphorus, compared to their "racing" oil which uses 1850 and 1750 ppm.
"High Mileage" oils generally contain higher content of ZDDP. Mobil 1 has a content of 1100 and 1000 PPM Zinc/Phosphorus. The downside is they are not API certified and can void an engine warranty, hence why they label it "high mileage" because your warranty is already most likely gone.
ZDDP content increases as viscosity increases xW-50 has more than xW-40 has more than xW-30 has more than xW-20 generally speaking (comparing same brand and same class oils)

ZDDP plays an integral role in bearing and friction surface wear. It's hydrodynamic film properties and shearing protection haven't quite been able to be replicated yet. It creates a protective barrier and in a sense adheres and "plates" the surfaces and bearings to create a anti-wear film.
Many classic car owners began seeing cam and flat tappet failures.
Motorcycles depend heavily on ZDDP content.
OEMs also began using lower pressure valve springs to compensate for the lack of these anti-wear additives.
ZDDP has been crucial in engine break-ins on rebuilds. Not using proper break-in oils is the cause of many older and classic car rebuild failures.



What does this mean to MX-3 owners?
That I can't tell you for certain. The most important bit I can leave you with is correlation doesn't imply causation.
Now let's talk about correlations!

The K series engine was designed during GF-1 certification or pre GF-1 certification, when ZDDP content was either unregulated or regulated at it's highest.
Many KL builders have failure soon after a rebuild.
The majority of KL failures are bearing-related. Not ring or detonation or valvetrain damage, not overheating, not headgaskets.
The majority of KL failures are reported post-2004, which correlates with the majority of classic car engine failures.
the KL31 heads, which have lower pressure intake valve springs, were made in Japan where the ZDDP content was regulated at 500 ppm or .05% and was never seen in the US except for that ONE year Millenia (and maybe a few rare one-off other years that have been spotted but hardly exist). Many other-markets which I do NOT know what regulations held had a combination of KL31 or KL01 heads.


There are plenty of other factors involved, including quality of parts used, cleanliness and proper rebuild steps, other factors of oil that I have not mentioned including detergents and other content of oil that is important and plenty of other factors. You can't just claim that one factor is the fault or the fix to an engine issue. You can't just claim, "measurable improvement" in oil and never claim to do a UOA. Or multiple UOAs. Claiming oil and filter quality from what you "see" doesn't justify anything but your ignorance. You can't "see" differences, only "test" them. and it's multiple tests over time.

Again, ZDDP content may or may not be a playing factor here. This thread is to build awareness and to provide a good bit of reading material in hopes this may inspire someone with the knowledge and resources to confirm or deny the existence of causation as the classic car engine builders have already.

Here is a list of several sites I have read. Happy reading!

http://www.inp.nsk.su/news/seminars/2011_298_ILSAC.pdf
http://www.gf-5.com/uploads/File/SAE_2007-01-1990.pdf
http://www.api.org/certification-progra ... H_2013.pdf
http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/effects-of-shearing/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil
http://www.gf-5.com/the_story/why_gf_5/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_dithiophosphate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_ ... #Three-way
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/Mot ... _Guide.pdf
http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs-wm/13340.pdf
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... ber=729029
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/Mot ... _Guide.pdf
http://www.stle.org/assets/document/Inv ... itwear.pdf
http://www.api.org/certifications/engin ... 120210.pdf
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012/03 ... t-why-how/
http://barsproducts.com/blog/the-straig ... -additives

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Last edited by SuperK on June 03 2014, 8:41 PM, edited 1 time in total.



May 06 2014, 8:05 PM
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Post Re: Obsolete oil, Modern oil and oil additives, a good read.
Interesting thread.

I've read about a few KL builds going bad, but they are few and far between. Not many people remember when someone rebuilds and had no issues compared to very memorable pictures of destroyed KL engines :lol:

I've rebuilt my KL31 and it's done approx 35,000kms on the rebuild. Running well and have been on full synthetic 5W-30 starting around 8-10k kms on the build. Have run shell, mobil 1, mobil "super syn" and will soon by trying some catrol titanium and Nulon long life. All full syn 5W-30.

Honesty never noticed anything between any of the oils I've used. Apart from doing many UOA's it would be hard to as you mentioned. I'd definitely steer on the safe side and change oil every 5-7k kms for safety. A few extra oil changes won't kill the budget anyways!

Will be doing some more research on this subject, thanks for the post!

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May 09 2014, 8:53 AM
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Post Re: Obsolete oil, Modern oil and oil additives, a good read.
Titanium was in testing as a viable "green" replacement for ZDDP, but no concrete test results I have seen determines it's effectiveness. I don't think it's a suitable replacement... From what I've read, the biggest difference is that ZDDP actually "plates" or "bonds" with the metals, whereas antiwear/friction modifiers such as titanium and "Moly" MoS2 just sort of... "lay" on top of the metals.


RX8SE3P, especially on PT there have been few trashed rebuilds. Everyone seems to blame their oil pump, especially if they used the "High Volume" one, even though no one actually dared take a picture of a failed oil pump.

I'm wondering and hoping that the ZDDP's hydrodynamic film may be just enough protection to prevent that #6 bearing from vacationing...



A couple more links:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/castrol-edge-qa/

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Rea ... engine-oil

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Last edited by SuperK on May 26 2014, 8:22 AM, edited 1 time in total.



May 25 2014, 10:22 AM
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Post Re: Obsolete oil, Modern oil and oil additives, a good read.
Very interesting, guess what oil I used to run in my engine rebuild for 500kms? (I just looked it up)

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/engineoils ... oducts=397
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/tech_pdfs/ ... ummary.pdf - The running in oil is in the same section as the racing oils

The 15W40 running in oil has 1600ppm of zddp!

Their everyday and enviro oils have well under 1000 zddp PPM. I think I'm sold on this, why would race oils have so much more if it didn't make a difference. It may now be a case of ignore all the marketing BS on the packaging and find an oil that you know has some decent zddp levels.

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May 26 2014, 5:31 AM
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Post Re: Obsolete oil, Modern oil and oil additives, a good read.
So when I stick my newly rebuilt KL in, what break in oil should I use?

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May 31 2014, 10:23 AM
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Post Re: Obsolete oil, Modern oil and oil additives, a good read.
icajewler wrote:
So when I stick my newly rebuilt KL in, what break in oil should I use?


If you cant find an oil specific for running in - probably a slightly thicker than normal mineral oil. Like a 10W-40 mineral oil (reason I say that is 40 weight oil is allowed to have more zddp in it). Don't use synthetic.

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June 01 2014, 4:54 PM
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Post Re: Obsolete oil, Modern oil and oil additives, a good read.
Can't really recommend a brand per se. There are oils specifically designed for engine break-in as he specified. I would recommend you do a little research on what is a good break-in engine brand oil.

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June 01 2014, 5:53 PM
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Post Re: Obsolete oil, Modern oil and oil additives, a good read.
Good read. Though now I'm.more than a little curious why I've been running royalpurple in the msp all this time =\
Maybe that's what killed my k8 as I didn't know any better at the time.
Then back to noob question; regular or synthetic?


June 03 2014, 4:25 PM
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Post Re: Obsolete oil, Modern oil and oil additives, a good read.
I'm hoping this thread won't be a debate between regular or synthetic. The purpose of this was to raise awareness to ZDDP, it's purpose and changes to it over the years.

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June 03 2014, 4:46 PM
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Post Re: Obsolete oil, Modern oil and oil additives, a good read.
Now I'm interested to do some serious research though. I went to RP as people basically told me to but my wifes es with 260k runs much nicer than my msp with 130....


June 03 2014, 8:14 PM
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Post Re: Obsolete oil, Modern oil and oil additives, a good read.
I added this link to the original thread:


http://barsproducts.com/blog/the-straig ... -additives


Royal Purple has a high content of ZDDP:


10W30 Royal Purple HPS (High Performance Street) synthetic
zinc = 1774 ppm
phos = 1347 ppm
ZDDP = 1500 ppm

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June 03 2014, 8:41 PM
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Post Re: Obsolete oil, Modern oil and oil additives, a good read.
But is it better to have high ZDDP or low?


June 22 2014, 9:40 AM
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Post Re: Obsolete oil, Modern oil and oil additives, a good read.
think of it like Goldilocks.
Not good if it's too high
Not good if it's too low.
Has to be juuust right.

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June 22 2014, 9:53 AM
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Post Re: Obsolete oil, Modern oil and oil additives, a good read.
So what is supposed to be the magic number?

Sorry if it is in the links or writeup, can't seem to find this in your writeup.


June 22 2014, 11:22 AM
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Post Re: Obsolete oil, Modern oil and oil additives, a good read.
I dunno. Something like that would probably need some wear testing and UOAs on both the oil and wear analysis on bearings over certain loads.

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June 22 2014, 11:48 AM
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